Talk:Misty (Pokémon)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

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Um, I think this article needs some cleanup. some sentances need rewriting and or moving, for instance "Misty caught a Seaking at the Seaking Contest Episode. After a hot battle with another Challenger of the Contest she won. No one knows where Seaking is now, though it is assumed that all the trainers released them. - Yes they were indeed released." and "Casurin has a crush on Daisy's Luvdisc, "Luverin". Her Luvdisc knows watergun!" -72.66.103.31

"Filling out the female audience identification quotient of the show"

This doesn't look to NPOV to me. I'm taking it out. Azure Haights 22:54, Oct 3, 2004 (UTC)

...TOO. *Too* NPOV. I need to learn to type. Azure Haights

Extreme General's edit

Extreme General, your edit removed a lot of information from this article. Can you explain why you feel that your version is better than that which preceded it? Kelly Martin 03:22, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)

well im sry, how bout insted of deleting it, why don't we make mine - Misty (Pokemon Game) & the prvious one - Misty (Pokemon)?

You can't just delete something to make your own article! Especially one that is much smaller and less useful than the exsting one! I have reverted to the original, and merged yours into the "non-animé info" section. Sonic Mew 16:08, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

This deserves an lol. 72.196.14.187 21:11, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

"Never shown romantic feelings"?

Contrary to the article, I thought Misty did show a certain amount of affection for Ash -- particularly in the movies. Is this not true?

That is a matter of debate. But it is clear that she does show some romantic feelings for Ash, particularly in the Orange Islands. Sonic Mew | talk to me 18:27, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Be careful with the 'Shipping'. As fascinating as it can be, none of it's official, though I do reckon the writers intend for Misty to have a secret crush on Ash. None of this can be proved for sure, however. Kai 00:54, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't think it was ever a secret to anybody other than Ash. Even Psyduck figured out, so obviously the audience was supposed to.

I agree. Even the American directors on the DVD of the first movie recognized this and mentioned it. Kasumi is almost definetely intended to have feelings for Satoshi. Minami-chan 01:41, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Yea, and at the very least in the American version she's meant to have feelings for him (I can't comment on the Japanese version as much), de to the song "Misty's Song." It doesn't happen in the show itself, but it shows that they intend her to have these feelings. The song starts and ends with voice clips of Ash and Misty (with Ash being clueless as usual) and has the chorus:

I wanna tell you what I’m feeling

But I don’t know how to start

I wanna tell you

But now I’m afraid that you might break my heart

Oh, why should anything so easy

Ever be so hard to do

I wanna tell you what I’m feeling

And to say that I love you

PokéShippers actually don't use that as evidence. There is plenty of evidence in the original, though, particularly as her feelings are confirmed in Gotta Catch Ya Later. Sonic Mew 21:27, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

It's still not really proven despite all the hints, though I on the whole agree. So to say she does have the hots for Ash is merely a personal take on things, not one of fact. Kai

Also what's the deal with the 'Since she's left, Ash has realised his feelings towards her' line? It doesn't suggest romantic feelings I'm afraid. Kai

Good. Because I've just deleted the entire section of Ash and Misty becoming a couple. They are too old. Besides, there's been a lot of shipping conflict all around this encyclopedia, so we're deleting all chemistry between Pokémon characters tat have not been verified. Wikipedia is a place for facts and truth. Got complaints? Talk to me at my mailbox. Thank you and have a nice day. 65.103.86.243

Thank you for your consistant cooperation by not adding the possibilty of Ash and Misty being together. Because of this, I will see that you will all get medals for your patience. 65.103.86.243

Wait, why were the bits about Misty's feelings for Ash erased? Misty's feelings for Ash were a major part of her character development and one of her major motivations for traveling with him no matter how you try to refute it. You're completely ignoring what she said in the second Pokemon movie (The original Japanese dialogue about how Ash was her burden), how painful her separation was from Ash in Gotta Catch Ya Later (As opposed to May's departure in the last Advanced Generation episode), the entire episode of "Misty Meets Her Match" (Especially how Rudy told Ash he was a "lucky guy"). This isn't an NPOV issue because her feelings were fact. 67.121.107.252 03:46, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

The whole shipping thing is POV. I'm sure every AdvanceShipper could come up with a logic to refute your theories, which proves that the matter depends on your point of view. And with the new season coming up, people are gonna be talking about Ash and Hikari. But none of this crap can be included on Wikipedia until there's official confirmation. In other words, this stuff can only be mentioned if any of these girls actually, verifiably and canonically says, "I love Ash Ketchum". And by "canonically", i mean Misty's Song doesn't count. Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 06:07, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Are you saying the above examples I listed can't be construed as evidence of romantic feelings? That's ridiculous. How else can you interpret Misty's actions then? What was the point of giving her an entire episode to choose between Rudy and Ash? What was the point of her being teased by Melody in the second movie all the time about Ash being her boyfriend and suddenly near the end of the movie, Misty solemnly says that Ash is her burden? How else can you interpret Team Rocket's teasing that Ash and Misty like each other in the episode "Pokeball Peril?" It's freaking obvious of what the writers had intended; they've bludgeoned us with their intentions in those episodes. It can't be POV when theres facts regarding Misty's crush on Ash and no facts regarding the supposed crush May has on Ash (Coupled with the fact that she left the show with heavy implication that there's reciprocity between May and Drew). Misty's crush has been confirmed, at least in Kanto, Orange Islands, and Johto. Her feelings were the main motivator in her tagging along with Ash and she used the bike as an excuse. The very least we can do on this page is at least acknowledge that those feelings existed prior to Ash going to Hoenn and were one of the major reasons why she followed Ash until Gotta Catch You Later. 67.121.107.252 19:27, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Read WP:V, WP:OR and WP:NPOV before you comment. And for all your "evidence", she's never actually said, "I love Ash Ketchum". Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 06:27, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Misty likes Ash. See how easy that was to solve.--Rat235478683--(and if they ever make an episode where someone goes into the future, Ash and Misty will be together with a kid)

Evidence [edit]Misty's List of Evidence Most other shippers agree that Misty's love for Ash is undeniable. In fact, out of all the major and secondary characters, she is the only one who has made her romantic intentions apparent. This evidence became more prevalent throughout the Orange Season.

Ash Catches A Pokémon Ash, willing to continue his journey alone, is followed by Misty. Upon noticing her pursuit in Viridian Forest, Ash puts her on the spot and asks her, "Why are you still following me?". Misty sweatdrops and unconvincingly stutters back, "M...My bike! I'm holding you responsible for my bike!". Her obvious insincerity clearly shows the bike isn't the reason she is following Ash. Why she is following him is made apparent near the end of the episode where she says "I've never known anyone like him. He really does love Pokémon". She does so in body language befitting that of an infatuated girl. Also, in her statement, it is pretty much implied that she has an interest in knowing Ash, who at this point, is a total stranger; a textbook case of a sudden crush. Poké Ball Peril Team Rocket introduces the concept of PokéShipping officially into the anime. Near the end of the episode, James says "I think we may have captured a pair of romantic creatures in our little cage" after which Jessie swoons and Meowth blurts out, "They're lovebirds!". The idea of Ash and Misty as a couple becomes the major sub-theme throughout the subsequent Orange Season, culminating into events in the 2nd movie. Ash and Misty deny it all, of course. Navel Maneuvers Danny, the Navel Island Gym Leader, quickly picks up on the nature of Ash and Misty's relationship during one of their arguments and says, "I can see the two of you are pretty close". After Misty asks what he meant by that, he replied, "What's that saying? 'You always hurt the one you love...". Danny, much like Team Rocket before him, is clearly observing something beyond friendship between Ash and Misty, thus reconfirming the idea of AAML in the Orange Season. Wherefore Art Thou, Pokémon Tracey at point, points out that Ash and Misty are like Ralph and Emily; they like each other and don't admit it. They reply by saying he's crazy. After the Nidoran kiss and evolve, Tracey comments about whether the battle or the kiss made them evolve. The idea of kissing embarrasses Misty and provokes Ash to ask the question, "Do people change when they get kissed?", after which Misty answers to him, "Guess we'll have to find out ourselves..." It doesn't get any more obvious than that. Misty Meets Her Match This entire episode alone serves as conclusive evidence that Misty not only likes Ash but possibly has developed a case of young love for him. Rudy, the Trovita Island Gym Leader, has a case of "love at first sight" with Misty after she saves his sister Mahri. After several advances from Rudy, Misty agrees to what is essentially an impromptu date with Rudy, leaving Ash and Tracey to themselves. According to accounts of the original Japanese version, during the dance after the date, Rudy not only asked Misty to stay on the island, but to marry him. What is significant here is that Misty was actually considering his proposal, evidenced by the fact that she didn't refuse him outright. Throughout Ash's gym battle with Rudy, Misty clearly showed which boy meant more to her, finally rooting for Ash in the end. Rudy finally sums up the entire theme of this episode in three words, "She wants him," thus continuing the theme of AAML along with Danny and Team Rocket. The Power of One P2K, otherwise known as 'The Power of One', or 'Revelation Lugia' is the conclusion to everything related to Misty's love for Ash in the Orange Season. In this movie, Misty gets competition in the form of Melody, the Festival Maiden of the Legend Ceremony. Melody, upon greeting our heroes, immediately comes up to Ash and plants a kiss on his cheek, provoking a glare of jealousy from Misty. Also, after Melody's performance at the festival party, she quickly kneels in front of Ash and grabs hold of his arm, provoking Misty to gasp and growl again in subdued jealousy. What really confirms Misty's love once and for all is found near the end of the movie, when Misty openly admits to Melody that Ash is "her burden" and goes off to rescue him in Melody's place, essentially cementing a "desired exclusivity" with Ash. The Light Fantastic When Misty introduces Ash to this ep's Nurse Joy, Joy quickly exclaims, "What a little cutie!", referring to Pikachu on Ash's head. But Misty and Brock mistakenly think she's referring to Ash. Brock is left completely shocked, but Misty not only gets shocked, but quickly develops the same jealous expression she displayed when Melody flirted with Ash; proof positive she still has the same feelings for Ash even in the notoriously unshippy Johto season. The Heartbreak of Brock When Brock first meets Temaku, Ash thinks about Brock actually being married. Misty then adds, "Someday, you and I will be married." (Ash almost realized she MOST LIKELY ment to each other). While giving a pep talk to Brock about pursuing a possible relationship with Temaku, Misty says, "Take it from me, it's a lot easier to like someone who likes you than to like someone who doesn't." Brock then asks her "How do you know?", after which Misty gasps, blushes, then coyly replies "Well that's...what I've heard..." Misty is clearly referring to her crush on Ash. It is clear she is not referring to Brock (much to the dismay of GymShippers) since she is openly encouraging Brock to pursue Temaku, and her history clearly shows she wants Ash. Love, Pokémon Style When Macy first invites Ash out to lunch, Misty quickly cuts in between the two and comments that Ash is "booked". Later in the same scene, Macy question's Misty's right to interrupt in Ash's personal affairs when she's not his girlfriend. Misty looks quite unimpressed as Macy continues to flirt with Ash. Gotta Catch Ya Later Editor's note: This episode is currently under debate on the merits of some scenes. Therefore this episode's entry should be considered incomplete.

The departure of Misty from the group is a very emotional affair. After all is said and done, Misty says to herself, "Well, Ash Ketchum, finally, I know how you feel about me". A Date With Delcatty In the original version, Misty initially rejects Georgio because there is "someone else". Taking into account of Misty's evident feelings in the series prior to this episode, it is inferred that Misty was making a reference to Ash. Luvdisc is a Many Splendored Thing When discussing the romantic issues between the Luvdisc, the way by which Misty encourages Luverin to never give up is delivered with such intensity that it is implied that she shares the same attitude for her feelings towards Ash. [edit]Ash's List of Evidence Even PokéShippers will admit that Ash has not shown any overt proof of liking Misty. This reality often provokes shippers opposed to PokéShipping (especially PalletShippers) to question Ash's sexual orientation as well. However, what we do believe is that Ash is capable of liking Misty, and furthermore, that Ash is undeniably heterosexual. This list combines evidence of both those facts.

School of Hard Knocks Ash and Brock gawk and blush over a picture of Giselle, the top beginner at Pokémon Tech. Later in this episode when Giselle appears in person, Ash grows big puppy dog eyes, blushes heavily, and comments, "She's real pretty, isn't she?". Much to the dismay of PalletShippers, this proves that Ash is attracted to females. Ash has never shown any definitive attraction to his own sex. Ghost of Maiden's Peak: Our hero does a double take when Misty appears with her hair down and dressed in a formal kimono. Upon seeing her, the camera switches to his perspective, the bubbly background usually associated with passionate moments is used, romantic harp strings are played, and Misty's surprised facial expression clearly shows she is being looked at with interest. Also, the entire theme of the episode was romance-oriented, so it's only logical to assume this scene between Ash and Misty is as well. Princess vs. Princess Ash, thinking Misty is entering the Princess Festival Contest to take a picture with the movie star host, gets a little jealous, groaning with his arms crossed, "You must really want that picture with Fiorello...". Surprisingly, Misty reassures him she's only doing it for the doll set. Ash, whether he's aware of it or not, feels threatened by the presence of another male in Misty's life. Navel Maneuvers Climbing Navel Island's central mountain, Misty tells Danny the gym leader to be extra careful. Seeing how much concern Misty is giving to Danny, Ash with the same jealous expression yells, "What's she so worried about him for?!". He's distracted so much by Misty's little crush on Danny that he loses his concentration and falls down the mountain a bit. Much like his behavior in "Princess vs. Princess", another male getting Misty's attention seems to bother him. [edit]Hints For those already convinced about PokéShipping, there do exist events which suggest inconclusively, something along the lines of romance. But the difference between hints and proofs are that proofs are essentially ironclad and undebatable in contemporary debate, whereas hints are quite debatable, and are open to interpretation. The following is a listing of some that are considered to be debatable hints, all of which vary in strength and worth.

Showdown at Pewter City Misty is surprisingly eager to start a Pokémon-sharing relationship with Ash in this episode and gets very upset when Ash refuses. Later, while Ash is charging up Pikachu's electric sacs, Misty again offers help to Ash and gets snubbed. She then grumbles and says, "What do I care..." and runs off. Misty somewhat admits by her behavior and dialogue that she's really interested in getting to know him better. Clefairy and the Moon Stone Misty, at the beginning of this episode, continually keeps mentioning how "romantic" the surroundings are. She continues to do this not only in this episode, but subsequent episodes as well. The Waterflowers of Cerulean City At the outskirts of Cerulean City, Misty attempts to dissuade Ash from going into the city by tempting him to go to Vermilion City. She does so by mentioning the "neat Pokémon, the yachts pulling into the harbor, and a spot way up on a hill where you can sit and watch a romantic sunset". The mentioning of a romantic scene subtly suggests what she might have intended for all along, especially with how many times she's talked about romantic things in previous episodes. Pokémon Scent-sation! Misty unaware that Ash is disguised as a girl among the crowd, using the same girlish demeanor she used in "Ash Catches A Pokémon", dreamily admits to the group, "I wish Ash would've heard that story..." She openly is expressing a desire for Ash's presence. Also, during Ash's gym battle with Erika, the girls in the crowd start acknowledging Ash's skill and how much more impressive he is than he looks, provoking Misty to smile with reassurance. The Legend of Dratini At the beginning of this episode, Ash is marching and singing the show's theme song (I think). Misty is right behind him and longingly stares at him until they reach the Safari Zone warden's house. After Ash sings out his last lines, Misty imitates his enthusiasm and sings her own lines as well. You know the old saying, "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." March of the Exeggutor Squad Misty goes into perhaps the most extreme fits of blushing in the history of the series, all provoked by a simple compliment from Ash about her skimpy stage outfit. No one blushes like that out of mere embarrassment. She clearly holds Ash's opinion of her in exclusive priority. The Misty Mermaid At the end of this episode, Ash tells Misty how amazing she was at her performance of the underwater play. Misty disproportionately calls Ash's comments "sweet talk" and reminds him of the bike he owes her, something she supposedly forgot about back on Cinnabar Island. Make Room for Gloom Upon arriving at the Xanadu Nursery, Brock spies on a pretty girl behind the window, after which Ash comes to look and says he doesn't see a pretty girl. Misty then says, "Just turn around" and giggles, clearly addressing Ash. Ash then jokes about her hallucinating, then starts chuckling. Ash, finally spotting a Gloom behind the window, asks Brock if "he's getting 'misty' over a gloom," This causes Misty to pull Ash's mouth wide with her fingers and ask him what is he saying about her, mistaking Ash's 'misty' comment with herself. Both seem to be blushing in the midst of their playfulness. Forest Grumps At the beginning of the episode, Ash and Misty are surprisingly close to one another while tending to their Pokémon. Brock on the other hand is away from them asleep behind a tree. Upon reunion, Ash and Misty exclaim each other's names in joy while the camera focuses on their faces. What's interesting to note is how the scripting and animation seem to focus just on their reunion alone. Scott and The Battle Frontier!! When Ash finally arrives home after his travels in Hoenn, he finds Misty at his house. She makes a point of being there, specifically so that she could see Ash as soon as he arrived back from Hoenn even though she apparently has no idea how soon exactly he would be returning. For all she knew, she could have been expecting a wait spanning multiple weeks. Azurill is a good excuse to go down there but it does not explain her behaviour: Why did she stay at Ash's mother's house, and not at the Oak labs? Why was she waiting at Ash's mother's house for days and days for Ash's arrival, especially given that they didn't know exactly how long Ash would take to return? Why was she so concerned about getting to see Ash as soon as he arrived? How can her somewhat wistfully delivered line of how Ash is the same as always be explained? Why couldn't she have simply delayed her trip down there until Ash had already arrived? evidence--Rat235478683--

That discussion concluded a while ago, and should never have taken place. This talk page is for discussing ways to improve the article, not shipping. Anything decided on in this discussion cannot go into the article because anything from the anime counts as original research because it is not explicitly stated. Also, we've all read the Bulbapedia article on the subject, so this is just taking up space. THL 21:49, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Misty likes Ash.--Rat235478683--

Misty Williams

According to imdb, Misty's last name is Williams. Can anyone confirm that? - Plau

see: [[1]]

Misty has no official last name at the moment. I am also pretty sure that May's surname is not Oak! Sonic Mew | talk to me 16:24, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

That would be one sucky name. I think her last name's "Waterflower." Darth Katana X 06:26, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

"Waterflower" is also a fanon name, however. Sonic Mew 16:58, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

"Waterflower"? That's a little too obvious, wouldn't you say? 65.103.86.243

She doesn't have one...Leave it at that. Michael 00:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I could have sworn Waterflower was her real last name, I think it was revealed by her sisters. I mean "The Waterflowers of Cerulean City" episode title is kind of a dead giveaway, and I think a Chronicles episode said so too. Matty-chan 05:13, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Prima

I know this is minor, but the line about it being debateable if Prima is in fact Lorelei isn't correct. I guess not many know this, but the Japanese name of the episode she appears in was "Shitennou Kanna! Koori no tatakai!!" As Shitennou is the Japanese name for the Elite Four and means "Four Kings of the Sky" (or more commonly Four Emperors) and Kanna is Lorelei's Japanese name, the best English title would have been "Lorelei of the Elite Four! Ice Battle!" The English version episode was called "The Mandarin Island Miss Match."

So Prima is or is not Lorelei? I don't think that clears it up; I have been wondering about this since I first saw the episode. Michael 00:20, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't be too pessamistic

The regular VA is going to come back. Don't worry. 71.111.215.224 21:25, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've changed most of the character pages to not be so pessamistic. The VAs won't be replaced. If that's vandalism, please forgive me. 71.111.215.224 22:49, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean pessimistic? 70.113.220.11 19:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Misty's age

In episode three Kasumi after finding Caterpie asleep beside her she says 「今日まで生きてきて十年間最低最悪の朝だわ」which loosely translated means "This is the worst morning I've ever had in my 10 years of life!" 70.113.220.11 19:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow, is that really true? Perhaps you could post that fragment somehow, so we all can see? - Face 20:40, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I dunno...maybe Misty was talking about one set of ten years, in which an extra six was good. Woah, I'm jumping to conclusions. 70.58.211.220

Listen carefully, I won't be saying this again -- Forget about the damn unverifiable ages. The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 15:04, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Well I think it was said in the anime that Misty is older than Ash, and Ash was 10 when he left on his journey. He was approximately 12 in Johto I believe. In the third episode she'd have been around 11 probably. Cao Wei 06:07, 27 July 2006 (UT

Wow those are horribly irresponsible parents... lol. Lordofchaosiori 16:06, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

*Yawns* Just keep your theories away from the article until you have concrete, reliable, verifiable sources to back them. Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 15:32, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Misty's age is given as ten on this website, same as Ash's. [2] Plus, it was never said that Misty's older than Ash. Besides, the characters' ages and the relationship between Ash and Misty are two of the most debatable subjects in the series. It's really impossible to tell what their true ages are until it's reveled canionically. I'm not too sure about that website. 14:56, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Why did Misty leave?

Does anyone know why the makers of the show chose to have Misty leave Ash and company? I think this would be important to add to the article. --Brandon Dilbeck 21:28, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

The writers never publicly revealed why. --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 06:06, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

She was just more expendable than Brock when it came to introducing May and Max. --Sonic Mew 20:14, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Atheist?

Well, Misty is an atheist. She does not believe in God.

For example, let's say that she's a Catholic. I am sure they would at least show a scene where she is praying to God, saints, or the Virgin Mary, going to mass, or worrying about commiting a "mortal sin" if that is true. But she does not act because she's afraid God will send her to hell for doing something akin to a "mortal sin" nor does she pray at all. Since Misty does not display ANY religiousness (for any religion), it is safe to say she is an atheist.

134.139.21.29 20:53, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Pikachu's also athiest, right? Because Pikachu never goes to church in any of the episodes I've seen. Squirtle was also never seen praying, if I'm correct. And Bulbasaur never once said anything religious. And Charmander, Pidgeotto, Butterfree—none of them carry a bible or anything. Joking aside, since it doesn't seem to be very significant to her character that she doesn't follow any religion (or maybe she does but we don't see it in the cartoon), I'm going to go ahead and remove her from the category of fictional athiests. Please refrain from adding every Pokémon species article to the fictional athiests category, too. --Brandon Dilbeck 21:07, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

How can a Pokemon be an atheist or religious? Humans practice religion, not Pokemon. I doubt most Pokemon are capable of understanding religious beliefs like humans are. 134.139.21.29 21:19, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I never see Misty work with a camera, does that mean she doesn't know how? We don't know, and just like her religion, it doesn't belong on the wikipedia article. Sonic3KMaster^(talk) 21:33, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, could you imagine Pikachu recieving communion? It is not practical, how could anyone imagine Pikachu going to Church. Well, Misty has been around for about two hundred episodes and she did not show any signs of religious beliefs at all. How could Bulbasaur say anything religious without Meowth to translate it. And Squirtle spends most of his time in the Pokeball. And where do you think Charmander, Butterfree, and Pidgeotto might get a Bible from? Maybe they converted when Ash let them free (Charmander being a Charizard, of course), but as I said before, only humans practice religion, not animals or Pokemon.

Well Misty nevers thanks God for anything too. Who does Misty thank when she wins a Pokemon battle? She did not pray for Charizard's health (nor did Ash Ketchum) after Tad's Polywrath used Ice Beam on Charizard.

So where is the evidence that Misty believes in ANYTHING that is supernatural (How do you know she might practice a religion, but not in the anime?). Remember, you have about 300 episodes of Pokemon to show that she does. In the absence of such evidence, it is safe to say that she is an atheist. 134.139.24.226 20:33, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, there's no evidence to suggest that she is athiest (unless you can find a reputable website that tells that she is). Making your own assumptions based on a lack of occurrences in a cartoon is original research, and you're not supposed to add information to Wikipedia unless you can find sources for these facts. So show us some resources or else you can't add her to the category of athiests. --Brandon Dilbeck 20:40, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Well why is it wrong to say her religion's unknown. I only got interested in this once I say the talk page. I have seen about 300 Pokemon episodes and I have never seen her do anything religious. So that statement I added is accurate. 4.232.174.45 00:25, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

• The fact that there is no evidence of her practicing other religions is not proof of Atheism; it is a complete lack of proof for anything.
• Unless it makes a difference, when something is unknown we do not mention it in the article. The character's religion, or lack of one, obviously does not matter because it does not affect any decisions that they make.

In conclusion, the lack of proof for atheism, and the complete unimportance of religion in the Pokémon series is keeping this stuff out of the article. Besides, she would be Buddhist if she were anything, Christianity is a minor religion in Japan, and Satoshi Tajiri had one of those reverse swastica things put in a trading card, so he's probably Buddhist. The Hybrid ^{Its a Cow!} 02:09, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's at least worth noting in the article that she does not practice any religion at all in the anime. Personally, I have stopped watching Pokemon after May and Max got added to the plot. In all the episodes I've seen she doesn't practice religion at all. I think this should be mentioned in the article, as it's an interesting piece of triva. Well, at least keep that in the article because of it. I do think it's premature to say she's an atheist. 4.232.72.151 12:47, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

That's stupid. She doesn't kiss Max in the anime, either. Maybe we should make a couple hundred megabytes dedicated to things she doesn't do? -Amarkov ^babble 13:09, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

There is a major difference between interesting and important. Only the latter is allowed to make it into articles. Also, we do not share your deffinition of interesting. This is why interesting doesn't get into articles; who's definition of interesting are we supposed to follow? Religion plays no role in the anime; therefore, it is not important. The Hybrid22:21, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Hybrid-No stereotyping please. Alvin6226 ^talk 02:47, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I didn't realise that I had. Where did I stereotype? The Hybrid Lives 04:46, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I think he meant not to speak for others about what we all think is interesting. --Brandon Dilbeck 04:53, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh ok, I'll watch that in the future, sorry. The Hybrid Lives

Well, Misty is atheist. Here's the definition of atheist on wikipedia:

"Strong or positive atheism is the belief that gods do not exist. It is a form of explicit atheism. A strong atheist consciously rejects theism and may even argue that certain deities logically cannot exist.

Weak or negative atheism is the absence both of the belief that gods exist and of the the belief that gods do not exist. In other words, anyone who is neither a theist nor a strong atheist is a weak atheist."

So Misty is a weak atheist because she has an absence in the belief of the existence of god or gods. Does anyone have evidence that does possess some belief in the supernatural? 134.139.24.182 19:09, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Religion is not once mentioned in this article. Religion is not once mentioned in this series. Religion is not once mentioned in any Pokémon game, anime, or manga. The burden is on you, Mr. Anon, to provide some reference in a reliable source that refers to Misty as an atheist. Until then, knock it off. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 19:20, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

So Pokemon depicts a world where religion does not exist. Is that what you are saying? 134.139.24.182 19:30, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

No, it is just that IN THE DEPICTION, there is no religion. For instance, just because a certain novel does not happen to mention pianos does not mean it is set in a world without pianos. It's just that pianos are irrelevant to the plot of the novel. The same thing happens here. -Amarkov ^babble 21:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

• Religion doesn't get into the TV show, the games, or the manga. That doesn't mean that it doesn't exist in the Pokémon world. A lack of proof that Misty practices religion is not proof for Atheism. There is no evidence at all for anything. A lack of evidence for one side is not evidence for the other; Wikipedia just doesn't work that way. Religion or no religion in the Pokémon world, it is completely irrelevant to the plot. In my opinion, Athiest or not none of this deserves to get into the article.
• This whole thing is completely irrelevant. Besides, do you really think the writers thought that far ahead? Misty is nothing, the writers didn't give her a religion, just like they didn't give her a last name. Misty is a cartoon character, it is a complete waiste of time to debate things that the writers never decided.
• Also, without reliable, secondary sources we are not allowed to put this into the article. Putting this into the article violates one of the 5 pillars of Wikipedia, so it cannot be done. THL 05:46, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I am not the person who keeps saying that Misty is atheist, but it is correct to say her religion is unknown, so that is why that information should be added to the article. 4.232.174.114 16:30, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

We have never seen Misty consume human flesh, should we say that it is unknown if she is a cannibal? THL 16:53, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Lol, are you implying that it is unknown Misty might be a Catholic with the human flesh example?... You should read this wiki article: Transubstantiation.

LOL. Yes, I am a ex-catholic. I can't believe I fell for that stuff. I'm actually laughing right now just thinking about it. THL

Do not put this thing in the article again. We have yet to reach a consensus. THL 16:55, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, do you see what I am saying though? THL

I don't know why people would talk about this because it has nothing to do with anything. You can't assume just because you never found something that it doesnt exist, well thats just a fallacy!!! Anyway who cares, can you believe there are people in this world who don't care about religion? The world would be a better place if there was no religion anyway.

Please don't stir this up again. Please, please, please, please, please, leave it alone. (THL breaks down and cries) -- THL 02:16, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

umm... what had happened!?

Someone edited out the part of the article that says that "There was a huge uproar on Misty leaving that agitated misty fans and they tried to get her back, but so far their cries have gone unheard." and the sad part is, that statement is actually true. See, Pokecommunity, Serebiiforums, Bulbagarden, and the tcg player forums actually had quite an amount of these clubs and topics (and unfortunately, flamewars kind of started by May fans and my own brethren (ie, Misty fans.) alike.). They may be fansites, but since there was quite an amount of these threads asking these and saying that she must return (And thus leading credence to the sources of that line.) that should not have been deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.32.187.30 (talk • contribs)

Forums aren't considered a reliable source. Sorry. -Amarkov ^babble 18:22, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Er, wouldn't it count as a primary source in this case? Am I missing something? --Sonic Mew 18:31, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, you're probably right. A secondary source would still be nice. -Amarkov ^babble 18:40, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

More Misty Atheism

Maybe Misty converted to Catholicism and became a nun and eats human flesh after her sisters came back to Cerulean City ;). If that happens, goodbye Misty as she cannot be a Pokemon trainer in a convent, I really loved her atheism :). 134.139.21.41 21:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Well I hope that does not happen, I really liked Misty and I hate May and Max so much. 4.232.174.88 02:31, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it's always funny to the people who don't have to deal with the crap. Though, I must admit, this one was actually pretty fun. THL 05:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

At the risk of stirring things up again, Misty was actually seen holding a cross to ward of bad spirits in one episode. (The Ghost of Maiden's Peak). --Sonic Mew 21:35, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

That may be, but she was also using items used to ward off vampires in conjunction with it - garlic, a stake, and a hammer. In short, she may simply have tried to turn (scare off) the Gastly using the cross WITH the zombie-hunting equipment. -Jeske ^{(Complaints Hotline)} 21:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Because of the cross thing, do you want to add her to the category of "Fictional Christians"? Or the cross can take on some none-religious meaning? I will be interesting to see the latter perspective's arguments because I find it extremely hard to imagine that Misty is Christian. I think it is best to say her religion is unknown and not to state if she is an atheist or not. 4.232.174.88 02:23, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I will add her to the category of fictional Christians, so post your objections here after you delete it. Or you might think that she IS Christian, and there would be no need of removing it. The cross thing shows that she is a Christian. 134.139.24.37 00:48, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Yet you ignore the fact she was also wielding tools for vampire-hunting, and a cross is linked with general persecution of the undead. She was trying to use them WITH the cross. -Jeske ^{(Complaints Hotline)} 00:54, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

This whole religious discussion is pointless. Even if we were to come up with something from the Pokémon universe that made perfect sense, there are no notable, secondary sources for any of this. I doubt there are even non-notable secondary sources. None of this can end up in the article, because anything we come up with is original research. THL 23:06, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, come on. This whole Misty thing so not Blastoise. We've got to have sources for these articles I really want to see a good source for this Misty business. --Brandon Dilbeck 00:26, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

What's that supposed to mean that it is "'so' not Blastoise"? I don't get the Blastoise part. 4.232.174.88 02:18, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Its a joke. The Blastoise article was vandalized by someone very creative. They added a section called Blastoise in Language or something like that; naming supposed catchphrases having Blastoise in them that were used around San Jose. One of them was That is so not Blastoise, meaning that the thing being talked about wasn't as cool as Blastoise. THL 11:58, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Explaining the joke is so not Blastoise. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 12:34, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, please don't kick my Arseus.THL 12:40, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Enough. Consensus has clearly been established that Fictional (religion) is not appropriate for this article. I have sprotected it to keep the single anon from constantly reinserting these ridiculous categories. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:54, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, could we just say the Misty is an empiricist then? She only believes in the existence of things that we can see. 134.139.24.37 01:16, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

How about we stop speculating as to the religious or spiritual beliefs of a character in a children's cartoon? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:19, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, she is a skeptic, just say that... it does not imply anything religious at all. Misty does not believe in anything dogmatically, and always uses analytical reasoning. 134.139.24.37 01:21, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Please provide a reliable source that calls her a skeptic. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:23, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Besides, if we're going to call her a skeptic, why not say she's of undecided sexual orientation, too? -Amarkov ^babble 01:25, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you so much for protecting this article. Now, IP(s) we will not add anything to this article until you provide us with sources. Anything that you come up with is original research unless it has a source, and putting it in the article is not allowed. Don't take this the wrong way, but everything you all have said thus far has been completely and totally useless because it doesn't have sources. It is like you have simply ignored what I have been saying. Come back with a source, or don't come back at all. That is what policy dictates, and that is final. THL 01:34, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Now, can we just ignore them unless they come back with sources? THL

How about adding the fact that Misty was fishing when she first met Ash. That could be verified by looking at an episode summary or by having access to the first episode of the show. 134.139.24.37 01:43, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Um... Is there a point you're trying to make there? Because I missed it if there was. -Amarkov ^babble 01:45, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Those facts are what we like to call Fancruft. Stop trying our patience, come back with sources or don't come back at all. THL 01:50, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

:::: Well, watch that episode, she was fishing in the first episode when she met Ash. After that Ash "borrowed" her bike. After the first episodes, she forgets about why she followed Ash in the first place, until Ash wins his badge from Blaine after defeating a tough Magmar. Misty then remembers that Ash destroyed his bike when they are leaving Cinnabar Island to go to Viridian City.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mTQ--_N1_-k

She also coaches Ash in the Indigo conference, except in the battle with Jeanette Fisher on the grass field. I think that info should be added. I do not think that is speculative like her religion (or lack of it). Again, it is in those episodes.

But, this isn't the place to add every single little detail on Misty. Adding oodles of minutiae is about as good as playing Russian Roulette with a gumwad-loaded revolver. -Jeske ^{(Complaints Hotline)} 01:56, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

The anime is a primary source, by the way. Basically, what you want added to the article is the definition of fancruft. THL 01:58, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Now I have to go. Please, read Wikipedia's policies. If you are doing this in bad faith, stop. I assume good faith to a point, but COME ON! THL 02:03, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Nope, it does state in the article that... "However, this plot point later becomes moot, as Misty actually forgets why she started traveling with him in the first place". Well, she does remember it in that episode, rendering that statement false. She was also upset. I'll stop with the atheism thing, but please acknowledge (in here, not the article) that it is a possibility. I am saddened that the writers did not explicitly state her religious beliefs. Fine, I'll stop with her philosophical and metaphysical beliefs. 134.139.24.37 02:08, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, of course it is a POSSIBILITY. But that doesn't mean it's important enough of one to take note of. -Amarkov ^babble 03:23, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

It must be remembered that only important things get into articles. THL 13:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

And I'll acknowledge that had the writers given any of the characters religious standpoints, atheism would be a likely candidate for hers. THL 14:00, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Do not edit my user page. I know that what you were saying on it wasn' in bad faith, and definatly wasn't vandalism. Please, if you want to talk to me, use my talk page by clicking my green L; you do not edit someone's user page. Yes, I am an atheist, but I don't get into cartoon characters enough to wonder about their religion; mainly because the writers don't think that far ahead.. THL 00:43, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

New Hoenn Image Needed

A bot removed the unsourced image of Misty in her Hoenn outfit. Does anyone have a sourced image of her? THL 14:32, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Would hacking Serebii's image help? --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 15:23, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

EDIT: By the power of Google bestowed upon me by the kindness of the Internet, I have detected that the original image came from here. Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 15:28, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

That was fast! Thanks RA. If you haven't already, could you list it as a source; I don't know how to do that. I'll go ahead and restore the image. THL 17:18, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Anything for Misty! Anyways, added the source, and I do hope that OrphanBot doesn't go a step further by asking where they got the image from; it's a Freewebs site, displaying the images on it is probably copyvio as well. --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 03:47, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

That is one of the advantages of bots, they cannot think. Anyways, thanks again. Cheers THL 05:02, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Why do you keep thanking me?! The article isn't anyone's private property, we're all supposed to manage it. Shall we now tweak the Wikimedia software to make it thank an editor every time they make an edit? Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 05:44, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I was just trying to be polite. You saved me a lot of time reading about what pictures work on Wikipedia, how to upload them, and finding an image for the article. I was just trying to show appreciation for doing something that I had requested. Anyways, happy editing. THL 03:22, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Excessive politeness can be a bit irritating sometimes. Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 05:46, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Gaaaaaaaah, shaddup the both o' yas! --Brandon Dilbeck 14:01, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Now, that's more like it. (Esperanzians would disagree, of course). --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 14:07, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Just as I prophesied would happen, it's been tagged again. An invisible comment on the Image Page: Where was this image originally published? A random freewebs site isn't a sufficient source We have A Man In Black's legal ethics to thank for this. --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 12:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Huh, I just saw this. Yeah, if a Pokémon image gets tagged as problematic, it's probably me doing it. In general, we need to know where the image was originally published, who scanned it (if applicable), what copyright status it's under, and if it's fair-use what our rationale for fair use is. Images found on random websites are almost never kosher. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 12:51, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

But the fact remains that "A thief isn't a thief until he (or she)'s caught." Unfortunately, you caught us, and now we'll have to find another Hoenn image. Yours irritatedly, The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 13:05, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

This really sucks! THL 23:01, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

My reaction to A Man In Black's abiding by laws. Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 03:39, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Nice. THL 04:42, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Gentlemen (and ladies?), I present before you Image:Misty AG.jpg, hacked from Serebii.net. May the law be Misted over! May the Black be covered up by the Blue of the Mist! --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 05:34, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Sweet, I hope we can keep this one. THL 05:49, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

If someone would add what episode it's from it'd be okay. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:24, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

AAAAAAAARGH!! How does it matter?! Isn't the fact that it's from the anime enough?! Bow to the Mist! --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 12:43, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

It isn't about what episode it is from, it is to show her new Hoenn outfit. THL 14:57, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

We need to know where this image was originally published. Referring to the Pokémon anime narrows it down to one of 400-some episodes and however many movies there are now. I can guess what season this is from based on the outfit, but a republisher of Wikipedia isn't going to know that. We need to know what episode. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 15:34, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, looks like I'll have to concede. Let's see-- She's only appeared in 5 episodes, and a few specials, in that outfit. So we just need to go through Serebii's images of those episodes. But I have an important school project to start tomorrow, so I can't do that. Anyone? --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 15:46, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll do it. THL 21:51, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Episode 411: A Real Cleffa-Hanger. Episode 409 by American airings. Cheers THL 22:08, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Added to image page. Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 13:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Yet more Misty atheism

Until I removed it a while ago, an entry on the Misty dab read: Misty (atheist), an Atheist
Needless to say, the article redirects to this one. --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 15:54, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

By the way, I just found this MISTY1. Now, who copied what from whom? --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 16:00, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Odd. Misty (atheist) is up for deletion, by the way.

It WAS, anyway. As well I forgot to sign or I wouldn't have seen the redlink. -Amarkov ^babble 00:07, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Never mind, it was a spelling error. Ignore the above post. -Amarkov ^babble 02:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I recomended it for speedelete because it was vandalism. Apparantly they listened; I feel special :) THL 01:41, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, I addded it there, but it is not deleted yet. You should learn how to spell "atheist" ok! I will not add her to the category of atheist anymore. I really love Misty, and I hate the fact that she left.

Best wishes 134.139.24.70 01:57, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Awww, I don't feel special anymore :( THL 01:59, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

MISTY LIKES ASH!

The heading says it all. Put it in the article, please.

No. It's a POV violation however you try to spin it. Until an official source says otherwise. -Amarkov ^babble 00:08, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The heading says it all. Put it in the article, please.

Didn't you listen? That's POV, not fact. Sign your comments please.--SUIT⁴² 00:19, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

No. The heading says it all. Put it in the article, please.--Rat235478683--

You know, if you really believed it should be in the article, you would put it in yourself. -Amarkov ^babble 00:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

O.K.--Rat235478683--

You misunderstand. I wasn't inviting you to do it... -Amarkov ^babble 00:41, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The heading says it all. Put it in the article, please.--Rat235478683--

If it is added again, it'll probably be reverted.--SUIT⁴² 00:48, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

O.K. and it's a shame too. I thought Wikipedia was a site that told the facts and it's as clear as day that Misty likes Ash. The heading says it all. Put it in the article, please.--Rat235478683--

I don't know where you got the idea that Wikipedia was supposed to have all the information you can find on everything. It isn't. -Amarkov ^babble 01:09, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

O.K. and it's a shame too. I thought Wikipedia was a site that told the facts and it's as clear as day that Misty likes Ash. The heading says it all. Put it in the article, please.--Rat235478683--

But it ISN'T a fact. It's speculation. When an official site says "MISTY LOVES ASH!!! STOP ARGUING ABOUT IT!!!", you can add it. -Amarkov ^babble 01:14, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Until then, don't add it.--SUIT⁴² 01:15, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Stop repeating yourself, Rat23478683. The anime doesn't say it EXPLICITLY (meaning word for word); therefore, it is original research and putting it in the article violates one of the 5 pillars of Wikipedia. It will not be in the article, sorry. THL 01:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

It would appear that Rat23478683 has put us on a list of enemies located on his user page, I feel special :) THL 01:42, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Returning to the point: A few sources do say that Misty likes Ash. There's Misty's Song, for one, and Misty's goodbye in "Gotta Catch Ya Later". OK, so both of them probably didn't originate from Japan, but they're still official as far as the English version goes, and references to them should be included. The real problem lies in doing that from NPOV, and keeping it that way. --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 13:54, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

As an afterthought: I don't know if the entry's still there, but pokemon.com, when asked whether Misty would ever be returning to the show, started blabbering about the wonders of love in an attempt to distract the fan. --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 13:57, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the only reason Rat235478683 keeps repeating the same argument is because that's the only argument he or she has (and it isn't a very good one, for obvious reasons). Also, if we were to simply state that Misty has had feelings for Ash, and provide a good, reliable source for the statement, I don't foresee any POV issues, except that "novice editors" would probably come around and try to expand it until there's bad information that's not sourced. --Brandon Dilbeck 13:59, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The pokemon.com entry is still there. Go to the site, check the Mailbag, flip to the second page of the "Recent Mailbags" section, and click the "How to Catch Deoxys Explained" topic. Last question there. Can't get clearer. So much for AdvanceShippers. Cheers! --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 14:16, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure there is a good, reliable, source, which is why I didn't think it should go in. But if you can find one, just put it in. -Amarkov ^babble 14:23, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The song and the episode can be cited as sources. But if you're looking for secondary sources, you might as well forget about editing Pokémon-related articles; you're never gonna find any for anything. --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 14:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Secondary sources I would actually trust less, here. I just didn't know that there were primary sources. -Amarkov ^babble 14:30, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm suprised to; I figured they were saving the answers for the last episode or something. THL 14:47, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I guess it doesn't get much clearer than that. Should we put also put in the article that she will be returning? THL 14:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

They never said she'd be returning. --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 15:12, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

It was so heavely implied tha they might as well have. Normally I oppose putting things that are implied in articles, but that was the most extreme case of implying something I have ever seen. THL

The heading says it all. Put it in the article, please.--Rat235478683--

You should hear yourself!

The heading says it all. Put it in the article, please. The heading says it all. Put it in the article, please. No. The heading says it all. Put it in the article, please. The heading says it all. Put it in the article, please. O.K. and it's a shame too. I thought Wikipedia was a site that told the facts and it's as clear as day that Misty likes Ash. The heading says it all. Put it in the article, please. O.K. and it's a shame too. I thought Wikipedia was a site that told the facts and it's as clear as day that Misty likes Ash. The heading says it all. Put it in the article, please. The heading says it all. Put it in the article, please.

Care to provide any sources for us, Rat235478683 (t c)? --Brandon Dilbeck 20:53, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I do. You guys are in denial, knowing I'm right and you're wrong. The heading says it all. Put it in the article, please.--Rat235478683--

Oh ya Brandon Dilbeck they thing you wrote about, "I think the only reason Rat235478683 keeps repeating the same argument is because that's the only argument he or she has (and it isn't a very good one, for obvious reasons). Also, if we were to simply state that Misty has had feelings for Ash, and provide a good, reliable source for the statement, I don't foresee any POV issues, except that "novice editors" would probably come around and try to expand it until there's bad information that's not sourced.", you sure will be editing it alot. (Personal attack removed) YOU! --Rat235478683--

As for your most recent argument, well, it's not very effective... --Brandon Dilbeck 23:16, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Well look at you (Personal attack removed)! --Rat235478683--

I've warned you with a npa3 template on your talk page about your list, and yet you continue to make personal attacks. An npa3 is a final warning, I'm reporting you. THL 00:23, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Go ahead.--Rat235478683--

Already did. THL 03:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Looks like someone's gonna be blocked....--SUIT⁴² 04:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

It is a shame that it had to come to that, but personal attacks can never be tolerated. Well, I guess it is time to return to discussing the article. THL 04:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Most of the things discussed here should be brought up in a forum, as Wikipedia is not a forum. Ah well... They'll learn...--SUIT⁴² 04:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

As I was saying: They didn't really say she'd be returning, they just circumvented the question. Anyway, I may be extremely stupid, but I still don't see how that implies she'll return. Moreover, I doubt they know much about that anyway, so if there really is an implication, that should be put into the article like "Pokémon.com reported she's going to return" or similar. Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 14:50, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

"Sometimes, when two people love each other, things happen that seem destined, and not planned." I'm not sure if I quoted that exactly, but the main idea is there. The question was whether or not she would be coming back. If you read the answer right, it is apparent that he wasn't dodging the question, he was answering it with a yes and giving the nod to Pokeshippers. He was implying everything, but he was no doubt strongly implying it. He wasn't just confirming Pokeshipping, he was saying that she will be returning, "things happen that seem destined, and not planned." -- THL 07:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I think that refers to her leaving in the first place, not returning. She wasn't planning leaving, but her sisters, i.e., her destiny, dragged her away from the gang. --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 07:37, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that we will agree on that, but the more I think about it, the worse an idea it seems to put any of this in the article. He could just be teasing the fans with false ideas. Seeing as it was just implied, lets not put it in the article; just in case he was joking about this stuff. It will also save us a debate about what he meant when we have no way of knowing for sure. -- THL 07:47, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmmmmm, as I said, it doesn't clearly mention anything. But we've still got Misty's Song and Gotta Catch Ya Later. --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 08:08, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I thought that Misty's Song was non-canon due to it never appearing in the show, and the evidence from Gotta Catch Ya Later is, once again, hints. Am I wrong about the non-canon part? -- THL 08:23, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Non-canon, but official nonetheless. As long as it's official, it doesn't matter whether it's canon or not. As for Gotta Catch Ya Later, she says, "you're more than just my best friend." Don't see any other way of interpreting that, unless you say she wants to pass him for her brother. Oh, and in "The Heartbreak of Brock", she tells him, "Someday you and I will be married too." Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 08:31, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I've got no problem putting Misty's Song as a souce; the other stuff is just implying it, but I'll leave that up to your judgement. Just a quick question, after we put this in the article, do you think the Hoennshippers will get involved, or leave it alone? -- THL 09:00, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Advanceshippers -- THL

AdvanceShipping is pretty much dead. It's the PearlShippers that are the main worry now. --Sonic Mew 12:35, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Another advantage of sprotecting the article. Less amateur interference. Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 15:15, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, don't put in the shipping stuff now. It needs to be NPOV, which means, it needs a lot of careful thought. I'll write a rough draft of it about 15 hours from now, and then you guys can vote on whether it's OK before we include it. Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 16:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Right, I had forgotten that the aticle was semi-protected. I wish you the best of luck in writing the draft; that will indeed be hard to keep neutral. Let us know if we can help in any way. -- THL 19:12, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Wrote the draft, it's underneath. Thoughts?? --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 07:42, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Relationship with Ash (Draft)

Misty has been theorized by fans to have a crush on Ash Ketchum by part of the Pokémon fandom, mostly because of various instances in the anime and its various non-canonical spin-offs that have been interpreted by fans as implying the same. Her crush on Ash was openly confirmed in the non-canonical Misty's Song, which was published in the Pokémon music CD "2BA Master". However, this has never been overtly confessed in the anime itself, with the most obvious, but still disputable, implications to that effect appearing in the episodes "The Heartbreak of Brock", in which Misty tells Ash, "You and I will be married someday too", and "Gotta Catch Ya Later", in which she sings of him, "You're more than just my best friend".

Over time, this possibility of this pairing, dubbed "PokéShipping" (after the shipping phenomenon in fandom) gained a cult following on the internet and elsewhere, with several online petitions demanding Nintendo overtly depict them as lovers being posted.

Since Pokémon: Advanced, however, the support for PokéShipping has considerably weakened, following Misty being removed from the main cast. Another factor in the fall of support was the birth of "AdvanceShipping", the belief that Ash and May, his traveling companion in the Hoenn arc, have crushes on each other.

Comments

Great! Nice job. Would it be better to say theorized as opposed to hypothesized? At this point there is a great deal of evidence for it, including a love song and a letter from Pokemon.com, and anything against it is really shaky. In my opinion, that makes it fit the definition of a theory. -- THL 20:34, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Still seems to be fan speculation to me.--SUIT⁴² 20:37, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Everything starts out as a curiosity/speculation; then, if it makes sense, it becomes a hypothesis. As more evidence supporting it is found, and no conclusive evidence against it comes out, then it becomes a theory. Finally, when it becomes completely confirmed and there is no way it can be false, it becomes a fact. At this point, with two incredible pieces of evidence and a wealth of more minor evidence, and nothing really strong going against it, this thought is at the point of being a theory, and theories deserve to get into articles (note some theories even have their own articles). -- THL 20:49, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, that's a good summarization.--SUIT^Halloween? 03:38, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

That is a sweet halloween signature. -- THL

Man, remember the important school project I mentioned? Just completed the damn thing. I'll sort out the problems with this tomorrow. Yours exhaustedly, The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 14:21, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

What did you have to do? -- THL 14:26, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Write a 100-page report on the major crops grown in India. --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 14:37, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

What the hell are you two talking about?--Rat235478683--

100 pages. That's funny. It's nice to not be that far in school yet. Yay for freshmen in high school. -Amarkov ^babble 01:24, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Freshmen in high school? That'd mean different things in different nations, but if you mean anything above eight grade, thank your stars you're not studying in India.
Returning to the topic, I changed the "hypothesized" to "theorized", added the Serebii refs, and deleted the lyrics ref, because it just struck me that the lyrics are bound to be copyrighted. The CD'll have to serve as confirmation for the song. Meanwhile, can someone please reference Amazon's CD Page for the second ref? I've got no idea how to use Amazon. And get to work looking for a thorough AAML verification site for the first ref, guys. I may or may not be able to find one alone. Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 06:33, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll get to Amazon. -- THL 06:53, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Done. There were 2 pages; one for used copies of the original CD, and one for an enhanced remake with the same songs. I chose the page for the original because the customer reviews referenced Misty's Song more than the remake. -- THL 07:08, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Would Bulpapedia's article on the thing work? I know Bulbapedia sucks at everything, but that article would probably work. -- THL 21:11, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Um, Bulbapedia's article on what? PokéShipping? Is that to say you intend using it as the first ref? That shouldn't be done, it's highly undesirable to reference a wiki, content can be changed anytime. --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 06:20, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I know; that's why I asked first. Their article is pretty impressive though, that's why I was wondering if we could. I doubt we'll find a more complete list anywhere. -- THL 07:26, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, just checked the article, and it is pretty impressive. If we don't find anything else, it can be used as a last resort, but let's keep searching for at least a week before we decide to use it for the ref. The section's been excluded from the article for several months now, it can be so for another seven days. Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 14:02, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Alright. Just out of curiosity, why does Bulbapedia suck so much? How and why do they screw everything up? -- THL 20:41, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Simply because it's run by the kind of people we'd call amateur, POVertic, nonreferencing anons. Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 15:20, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

That makes sense. I was curious because they have the opportunity to do all of the things we don't, and I figured most of the people here would jump at it. I guess that the only problem it could have that could cause it to be in this form would be management. Anyway, I'm still looking for a good fan site. Cheers, -- THL 20:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

What if we just say that characters in the anime have questioned Ash and Misty's relationship? Because that's definitely true. And then provide examples of that. Like Danny the Gym Leader in the episode "Navel Manuvers", Macy in "Love, Pokémon Style", and of course, Melody from "Pokémon the Movie 2000" 13:15 7 November 2006 (UTC)

We want to provide a complete analysis of Misty's side of the Pokeshipping theory. By the way, would you happen to know of any fansites that have a complete list of the Pokeshipping hints? Cheers, -- THL 22:24, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've cited the Bulba ref. Unless anyone has any objections, I'll be adding this to the article in the next twenty-four hours. Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 15:50, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[3] [4] [5] [6] This is only the tip of the iceberg of what I found.--Rat235478683--

Sweet, the first one is probably the best out of those. I'm not trying to be picky, but would you happen to know of any larger lists? At this point we need one source with detailed information spanning all seasons of Pokémon. One that can somewhat compare with the Bulbapedia article. At this point, I would like to use source 1, 3, and 4 that you have provided us, as they are from reputable sources, in addition to the Bulbapedia article. Raven, is this OK with you? We could also list the second one to show that Pokeshipping does have a fandom, but I'm not sure what we would gain from that. Thanks again Rat. Cheers, -- THL 23:36, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, adding this to the article put on hold pending further discussion. I think we should cite the first source in addition to Bulbapedia, then mention that pairing is called PokéShipping, and that it has a fandom. The second source would serve for that. Thoughts? --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 14:55, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Go for it. -- THL 22:20, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[7] And just look at all of the places on Google. [8] and [9] --Rat235478683--

Yeah, but were after Bulbapedia-sized lists specifically. Detailed guides to movies might be okay, but at this point were after a list that has everything Bulbapedia has, but isn't Wiki formatting. -- THL 03:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

UNBELIEVABLE!!! Check out this, and this, and this, and this! All from Rat's Google list! Can't believe none of us spotted this. But now..... WE CAN DITCH BULBAPEDIA!!! Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 07:37, 18 November 2006 (UTC) (PS: I'm gonna work on the draft sometime in the next 12 hours.)

The links don't work for me. You may want to check them again. It might just be my computer, or maybe something happened to the sites. Cheers, -- THL^CCD 07:42, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Uh-oh..... Still working for me. Maybe we should wait until a few more guys have checked the links. --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 07:51, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

You can actually go for it. Ever since I downloaded the first 4.2 billion numbers of Pi a couple of days ago and forgot to delete the file, my computer has been acting up. I can't find the file :(. I've run search after search, and looked myself over and over again, but I can't find it. Anyway, it is just my computer, go for it. -- THL^CCD 07:55, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Slow but hopefully thorough, How's this version? --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 14:30, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I like it, but this kind of makes Advanceshipping sound superior. I'm going to reword it a little bit, and if you don't like it feel free to revert it. -- THL^CCD 00:35, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Done, what do you think? -- THL^CCD 00:51, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Nope, the last sentence is particularly controversial. That wasn't "recent", it's been there for years. And it's mentioned on one of the "Hint" pages we're using as refs. And it's not for us to decide which is going stronger; not without sources. So I'm removing the last sentence. Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 15:18, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. I'm going to try and find a way to reword the last couple sentences just because it stops abruptly without any conclusion. Cheers, -- THL^CCD 22:46, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually it's fine. Where do you think would be the best place to put it in the article? -- THL^CCD 22:48, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

In the anime section, before the Pokémon section, I think. Thought?? --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 03:31, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Perfect, just what I was thinking. I'll go ahead and copy the paragraph into the article. I wonder what kind of reaction this will get. Cheers, -- THL^CCD 07:23, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I've been editing the Misty page to add in Relationship with Ash and all I said was there were hints she like him and she never said it in the anime. Pretty simple and true compare to this draft. However Why are people concern about Misty bio over Drew bio saying he and May might have romantic feelings? No one ever edit it! So next time you edit Misty bio ask yourself why is this more important then these unedit bios saying the character has a crush but it's not confrimed!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_Naruto_characters#Hinata_Hyuga

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Zelda#Relationships_with_other_characters

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pok%C3%A9mon_characters#Other_recurring_characters

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_racer#Characters

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_characters_in_Tales_of_Symphonia#Colette_Brunel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tales_of_Eternia#Characters

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamtaro#List_of_main_hamsters

Question is if Misty were to kiss Ash on the cheek (or even on the lips doubtly)Would that not be a good enough to mention in her Bio? How would you mention without making a relationship with Ash section? How is it not evidence? OMG she kissed him!! NO That's not proof she likes him she could had tripped!LOL:P Good Friends can get kissed and have no romantic feelings Look at these example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beast_Boy#Personal_life

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Zoids:Chaotic_Century_Characters

^Here characters were kissed but it was said to be just a hint and not enough evidence to say they had romantic feelings. And still weren't edited either.

EternalSunlight (talk) 07:27, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Bravo

You saw through my attempt to stealth "vandalize" (I don't see it as vandalism though because it is correct) this page. I promise I will not do it again though. Basically, I attempted to say Misty is atheist again, without using the word "atheist" and "religion".

Here is what I mentioned: "Misty is an advocate of critical thinking and freethought and rejects any form of dogmatism and superstition"

and Amarkov responded:

"No. Stop disguising the statement "Misty is atheist" and then telling people to go to the talk page. I've left the other edits intact"

So I am just curious, why she isn't an advocate of freethought and critical thinking?

Best Wishes to all!

LinkinPark 15:00, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

It's not an issue of whether or not she is. I don't know if she is, and I don't care. The issue is that you have no reliable source for that, so we can't add it. -Amarkov ^babble 15:03, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I take your edit as complement... one does not say explicitly that Misty does not practice religion, expresses disbelief in God, or state directly that she is an atheist though. One should remember that the atheism is a natural consequence of embracing critical thinking and freethought, and rejecting dogmatism. Freethinking is a characteristic of atheists, thus saying she advocates freethought is another way of saying she rejects religion. LinkinPark 15:10, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

That's nice, except I embrace critical thinking and freethought, and I'm still Catholic. Seems to be a teeny bit of a problem there. -Amarkov ^babble 15:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I am an ex-catholic who became an atheist, but I don't support listing Misty as an atheist because there are no reliable, secondary sources supporting this hypothesis. I'm going to tell you what I told the IP before; if you want in the article that she is an atheist, come back with sources. Otherwise, don't come back at all; end of discussion. That is what policy dictates, and that is final. -- THL 19:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

It's a theory, a theory! Most of the evidence in the anime supports it! LinkinPark 01:17, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

There's the problem. Just having a theory that the anime supports is original research. -Amarkov ^babble 01:20, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

To further drive home that point, it is only your interpretation of what the anime is or isn't saying that supports it. As you can see, we don't take it that way; therefore, it is your hypothesis. -- THL 02:17, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I am not asking for this to be in the article, I was merely saying it should be regarded as a theory (although it does not have as much support as other theories such as the theory of evolution and general relativity). It is a theory because it is the best interpretation of the evidence available regarding Misty's religious beliefs or the lack of them. Does anyone else have a better interpretation of the anime? What alternative evidence one can propose to state that Misty is a religiously devout person. Fine, there is little evidence to suggest that she is atheist, but there is no evidence to suggest that she is religious devout. Does anyone have evidence that Misty is religiously devout. Religiously devout people practice religion on a periodic basis, such as praying daily or going to Mass weekly (some Catholics go daily). Since Misty does not exhibit these characteristics of a believer, I am stating that it is a theory, not merely a hypothesis, that she is not religiously devout.

I will stress that I am writing this because of the usage of the word "hypothesis," not because any of this should go into the article. LinkinPark 15:31, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I have a better interpretation; the writers didn't give her a religious viewpoint. Rather than continue to push this, I'll just change the word to idea. Satisfied? -- THL 22:42, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

So if she does not have a religious viewpoint, doesn't that mean she is not religiously devout? It's still a "theory" that she doesn't practice religious at all though, it is not merely an idea. LinkinPark 01:45, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, change it back to "hypothesis". I think it is better than "theory" as you are refering to the notion of Misty being an atheist. However, the idea of Misty not being religiously devout is a theory though? Agreed? LinkinPark 02:43, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

By real world standards, I suppose that it would be a theory. Remember, there isn't enough yet to satisfy Wikipedia yet, so don't get your hopes up. Sources, sources, sources. -- THL 03:14, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Ack! Can't we protect this talk page too? --Brandon Dilbeck 02:42, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

For every annoyance that goes away, a new one will pop up in its place; such is the nature of life. Oh well, without them life would be rather boring. -- THL 03:34, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, critical and freethinking is what causes people who were not raised in a certain religion to convert to it. Different people have different logic, and to say that doing something always causes another thing to happen when it comes to the human mind can never be true. -- THL 23:27, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

ON WHEELS!

How do you revert page move vandalism? I just moved this article back from Misty ketchum, but how do you revert it? -- THL^CCD 03:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

In the move log, there is a revert option by the entry. Just click it. -Amarkov ^blah_edits 04:39, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I've never encountered that problem before. -- THL^CCD 04:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you guys need to protect the page again :( . I promise I will not add anything about her religion on the page.

I must also add that it actually does not make any sense that they would reveal her as an atheist. In reality, being an atheist is nothing to be proud of. I am not proud of not believing in things. For example, I don't know anyone who is proud of not believing in the existence of Santa. So it is unlikely that she will come out as an atheist :(. Well, there is no evidence that she practices religion at all.[User:LinkinPark|LinkinPark]] 15:13, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

The vandalism hasn't been too bad, actually. I'm pleasantly surprised. Anyway, it looks like you may not be the last person to explore religion in Pokémon, though not Atheism specifically. On Ash's talk page, someone is saying that legendary Pokémon are like gods. It would appear that a chain reaction has been set off that won't end until these talk pages are archived, and this subject is out of view. Oh well, cheers everybody. -- THL^CCD 22:15, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I would agree with that about the legendary Pokémon are gods though. I rather worship them than the Christian God.

Could you provide a source for the creator of Pokémon as a Buddhist. I am simply curious though, but I have no reason to deny it.LinkinPark 02:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

The controversial Golbat card that had the Buddhist symbol some Jewish kid mistook for a swastika is what I usually cite. I saw another source, but when I switched internet providers I lost it. BTW, it would be best to not insult the Christian God. Amarkov is a Catholic, and so is my entire family (my brother is Protestant actually, but same God, same deal). I would appreciate it if you wouldn't go there. Anyway, legends are just rare and powerful. No doubt that legends such as Ho-oh, Lugia, Celebi, and Rayquaza are portrayed as god-like. However, all of them have been defeated by a more powerful being. With the exception of Rayquaza, mankind was that being. With Rayquaza and Ho-oh being the exceptions, it took other humans to save them. Deoxys defeated Rayquaza, and seeing as Deoxys isn't God (it is a mutated space virus), Rayquaza can't be either. While I guess Ho-oh wasn't defeated per say, it had to flee when mankind came after it, and it refuses to return to this day. The point I'm trying to make is that these are not all powerful beings, and with the correct technology mankind can bring them under its control; violating the very definition of a god. Gods, Pokémon are not. -- THL^CCD 11:27, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Don't mess with Christianity!!--Rat235478683--

Shipping

Misty has been theorized by fans to have a crush on Ash Ketchum by part of the Pokémon fandom, mostly because of various instances in the anime and its various non-canonical spin-offs that have been interpreted by fans as implying the same. Her crush on Ash was openly confirmed in the non-canonical Misty's Song, which was published in the Pokémon music CD "2BA Master". However, this has never been overtly confessed in the anime itself, with the most obvious, but still disputable, implications to that effect appearing in the episodes "The Heartbreak of Brock", in which Misty tells Ash, "You and I will be married someday too", and "Gotta Catch Ya Later", in which she sings of him, "You're more than just my best friend".

Over time, this possibility of this pairing, dubbed "PokéShipping" (after the shipping phenomenon in fandom) gained a cult following on the internet and elsewhere, with several online petitions demanding Nintendo overtly depict them as lovers being posted.

Since Pokémon: Advanced, however, the support for PokéShipping has considerably weakened, following Misty being removed from the main cast. Another factor in the fall of support was the birth of "AdvanceShipping", the belief that Ash and May, his traveling companion in the Hoenn arc, have crushes on each other.

This isn't a bad try, but it's horribly, horribly, horribly sourced. Geocities sites are never reliable sources. (They're equivalent to things you found written on pieces of paper laying on the ground.) None of the Serebii links say anything about shipping. The Petitionspot stuff is more self-published junk, and Bulbapedia isn't a reliable source (again, it might say anything at any given time).

Also, according to whom is Misty's Song canon? Who ever said Pokémon had canon?

This is not up to an encyclopedic standard of sourcing. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 08:27, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Read the damn thing again. As mentioned, the song is NOT canon, but it's official. And the sentence referencing Geocities states that these hints have been INTERPRETED by fans as supporting the Ship. And this shipping has a huge fandom; if there's one non-in-universe thing about Misty, it's this. And, nowhere in the entire text does it say that the Ship exists or will exist, it simply says that PEOPLE say so, and that's what it's sourced for. Totally NPOV. Plus Serebii's guides are for the EPISODES, not the ship. And this whole thing has been discussed a couple of topics above here, in which you didn't care comment. Yours irritatedly, The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 09:08, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Bulbapedia has the most impressive collection of Pokeshipping hints that there is. Everything else is horribly incomplete, and that is why we chose it over the other sources. We looked for one that had a list that could even be considered at the bottom of Bulbepedia's league, but it just doesn't exist. The Geocities are to support the Bulbapedia source as well as provide somewhat stable sources in contrast to Bulbapedia's unpredictability. The petitions are to show that this view has a fandom, and not back up anything else. Slightly less irritatedly because I was expecting you, -- THL^CCD 09:18, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

It just hit me, this isn't about the anime, this is about fan interpretations of the anime. If this gets past this point we shouln't put this under the anime section, we should put it somewhere else. -- THL^CCD

A slightly off-topic comment: Actually, THL, the Geocities refs contain much more exhaustive lists than Bulbapedia's, as you'll discover if you format your PC to remove the pi file. (Forget about that if it's too painstaking.) As of now, the Bulbapedia link is being used as proof that the ship is called PokéShipping. Read the whole thing again, guys. --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 14:40, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Seriously, I need to stop filling in the blanks in my head. I'll have to take your word for it; I still can't find that file. I wonder if it had a virus. Anyway, sorry about changing the subject, and filling in the blanks wrong. Cheers, -- THL^CCD 14:51, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that I could change the Bulbapedia article to say that Pokeshipping is Misty and Brock, then link my own Geocities site with a list of hints about Misty and Brock. None of these sites rise to the standard of reliable sources even at the exceedingly low bar set for articles of this nature. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 20:42, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, you have a point about the Bulbapedia link. But as for changing the links to the Geocities site on THIS wiki, that'd count as vandalism, and, by an extension of your logic, we ought to shut down the whole site for fear of vandals. And we're talking about fan interpretation of the anime, what kind of sources do you want that aren't fan interpretation? The fact remains that the ship gained a large fandom over the Net and by word-of-mouth, and it just HAS to be mentioned. And, lastly, if you've got so many problems with THIS version, why don't you simply post your own, BETTER version, out here for consideration? Yeah, decline, I knew you would. Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 03:40, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Anyone can edit Wikipedia. Let's just give up on it now. Edits on Bulbapedia are less and so seen by more eyes than Wikipedia so it's certainly more reliable. If you want a static page, just use the cite function to link to a particular version of the page. [10] --Sonic Mew 19:30, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Now that's a good idea. Well, now that Sonic Mew has solved the Bulbepedia problem, I guess that we should address the rest of Amarkov's comment down south. -- THL^CCD 19:36, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

@ Amarkov's comment: Let's see:

1. Unsourced: As of now, it's got more sources than all the rest of the article. It's the quality of sources that needs to be addressed, and ourongoing debate with AMIB will ensure that it is.
2. Too long: 3 paragraphs. As short as I could make it. If you can find any cut-downnabkle info, be bold and cut down on it.
3. Ugly: Huh, what exactly does that mean?
4. Add it after it's fininshed: As of the time we added it, it was "finished" (though THL forgot to rm the word "draft"). But now, thanks to AMIB, we have a few more tasks to complete, and we're not adding it until they're completed.

All addressed? Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 14:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah. Before, it was just... long, for no apparent reason. -Amarkov ^blah_edits 05:16, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Adding a draft section to the article

Don't. It's unsourced, it's too long, and it's ugly. Add it after it's finished. -Amarkov ^blah_edits 16:40, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

I have gone through the past 50 edits in the history of this article. A disturbing 17 or so of those 50 edits are vandalism or bad-faith edits, and almost just as many more are reversions of those edits. That seems like a lot. --Brandon Dilbeck 03:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

34 out of 50, that is a lot. Maybe we should protec this article again. I guess the word got out that it had been unprotected. -- THLR^CCD 04:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

My BOLD prediction in bold and big...

Declined – Not enough recent disruptive activity to justify protection. -Amarkov ^blah_edits 05:36, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Big issue with references

I never really checked before now, but I've realized that the sources we are using in this article are dismal. Writing citations and attributions usually isn't my cup of tea, but it's obvious to me that what we have here is largely unacceptable. There are currently 17 footnoted citations. I am listing them here in case they are changed later:

1. Pokémon anime overview Psypokes.com. URL Accessed May 25, 2006.
2. Pokémon anime, episode "Pokémon, I Choose You!" (Season 1)
3. Pokémon anime, episode "The Mandarin Island Miss-Match" (Season 2)
4. Pokémon anime, episode "Trouble's Brewing" (Season 4)
5. Pokémon anime, episode "Who Gets To Keep Togepi?" (Season 1)
6. Hints in the Kanto and Johto arcs Ash and Misty's Love (Geocities). URL accessed November 19, 2006.
7. Hints in the Johto and Hoenn arcs Ash and Misty's Love (Geocities). URL accessed November 19, 2006.
8. Hints in Specials, Movies, Manga, etc. Ash and Misty's Love (Geocities). URL accessed November 19, 2006.
9. Hints in Pokémon Live! Ash and Misty's Love (Geocities). URL accessed November 19, 2006.
10. 2BA Master Amazon.com URL accessed November 4, 2006
11. Pokémon anime, episode "The Heartbreak of Brock" (Season 4)
12. Pokémon anime, episode "Gotta Catch Ya Later" (Season 5)
13. PokéShipping Bulbapedia. URL accessed December 17, 2006.
14. Ash and Misty belong together Petition Spot. URL accessed November 19, 2006.
15. Ash and Misty getting together Petition Spot. URL accessed November 19, 2006.
16. Pokemon Ash and Misty's Love PetitionOnline.com URL accessed November 19, 2006
17. AdvanceShipping Bulbapedia. URL accessed December 17, 2006.

I don't really have anything to say about References 1–5. It's References 6–17 that present us with problems and difficult decisions. These references are all referred to by the Relationship with Ash section. You see, as recently as a few months ago, many editors were adding unverified information on the romance between the characters Ash and Misty without adding any citations and these additions were being reverted. So the information was readded, perhaps by different editors. A cycle was created. Then someone, I forget who, and it isn't important now, rewrote the section, supplying it with a lot of references. The problem is that I don't think most of these references would comply with Wikipedia's attribution policy (WP:A).

References 6–9 look like a childish fan site that contains only speculation and I can't put a lot of trust into it—a quotation: "it's just really cute because Brock is caught up in some spell thingy with the girl and Ash and Misty try and break him out of it and go on their on mission thing ^_~" It doesn't sound at all professional to me.

References 13 and 17 attribute Bulbapedia. I am of the opinion that WE SHOULD NOT BE CITING BULBAPEDIA. That encyclopedia seems to be full of missing information and low article standards. And neither of those Bulbapedia articles demonstrate any attribution. And Reference 17 says that it "does not yet meet the quality standards of Bulbapedia"—we can't be citing something that's been pointed out as not meeting quality standards. I'm not saying that we should be holding Bulbapedia to Wikipedia's standards, but the site is similar in appearance so they probably copied standards as well.

References 14–16 might be the cream of the crop of bad pickins. I'll just state immediately that 14 and 15 return what appear to be 404 errors! I'm sure they weren't 404 errors when they were first cited, but they can't stay. And in any case, we shouldn't be citing petitions. The article uses the citations to demonstrate that there are indeed petitions, and I think there's some problem with this. I'm not sure exactly what it is, but I think it falls along the lines of using original research.

So I think we need to make a decision; some action needs to be taken somehow. These references aren't doing a good job of giving the section a good foundation, and the section can't stand by itself anyway. So I think the section needs to be taken down. --Brandon Dilbeck 08:22, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, I should have done some digging around before writing all that, but a similar discussion has occurred in the past: Talk:Misty (Pokémon)/Archive 1#Shipping --Brandon Dilbeck 08:24, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Ya, you should have, especially as I spent around an 5 days searching for the shipping theory sources. And someone's been using {{cite episode}}, i think that's a good idea for the direct observations. To work, Wikians! --The Raven's Apprentice^{(Profile|PokéNav|Trainer Card)} 07:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

PokéShipping or No PokéShipping

I think we need to decide whether or not this shouldn't be included in the article or not once and for all. Although I will admit that I am a PokéShipper, it may be better to leave this out in order to gain some appeal with different shippers in the series (namely AdvanceShippers), but when I first saw this article without even mentioning this, it felt weird. I believe it is a relevent part of her character, even though it hasn't been openly confirmed or proven. This is complicated by the fact that most of the hints of Misty liking Ash are only in the English dub, and not in the original Japanese version. I know that both the English and Japanese versions of Pokémon: The Movie 2000, have roughly the same script, and the sub-theme of the entire film is the possibilty of Misty having a crush on Ash. Now here is an instance is strangely only the Japanese version of Pokémon Chronicles and NOT in the English version.

In the Japanese version episode, "A Date With Delcatty" (titled "Kasumi Shinken Shoubu! Mei Kakemasu!?" in Japan), when Misty and Casey first meet Georgio, who admits to having a crush on Misty. This dialogue then occurs (I can't remember if it's exactly like this or not):

• Misty: "No, I won't go on a date with you."
• Georgio: "Wh-why not? Is there some other boy you like?"
• Misty: "Uh..."
• Casey: "Yeah, is there?"
• Misty: "Umm..." (while blushing)
• Casey: "There is, isn't there?!"

(At this moment, Psyduck appears out of Poké Ball)

• Misty: "What do you want?" (while facing Psyduck)

(Psyduck then gives Misty a huge mocking smile, Misty gets angry and has it come back into its ball)

You would really have to watch it to see this, but it implies that even Psyduck believes that Misty has a crush on Ash, and I bring up this hint up because, One: It isn't very well known and/or not mentioned very often, which leads me to number two: it's only in the Japanese version. And Three: To me, this moment confirms that Misty at least has a crush on somebody, because if she didn't, she would have easily said something like, "No, it's not that.", when Georgio asked if she liked someone else. And if that boy she liked was Tracey, for example, Casey already met Tracey eariler in the episode and she would have mentioned Tracey at that moment. Adding this situation to the numerous hints of PokéShipping in past episodes would logically confirm that Misty has feelings for Ash, but that's just me.

Despite that it hasn't been openly confirmed, people have been adding things like this, which can be found at the end of the Hoenn and beyond section:

• According to Misty's Japanese voice actress, Mayumi Iizuka, Misty will return later in the Diamond and Pearl series. It is unknown whether it will be a return to the main cast or just a guest appearance. In the series she will tell Ash her secret, that she has feelings for him.

Although I can't disprove the last sentence in that paragraph, I pretty sure that someone just added it because that person wants to see that, unless there's an existing source somewhere that can prove it. Any comments on this? 206.66.217.143 22:13, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Detractors would point out that Ash is never mentioned but it's still conclusive proof that she has a crush on somebody. We could go into an explanation of how Ash is the most likely candidate but that probably wouldn't fit Wikipedia's style.

Mayumi Iizuka did mention on her blog [11] that Misty would make an appearance but that has already happened since she presented the stuff around the tenth anniversary.--Sonic Mew 11:30, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Pokes Misty's Song from the 2BAMaster CD. Quite obvious. trainra 11:32, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I've taken out the last sentence of that quote. Even if she does return, we can't state that she will announce her feelings since a source for that does not exist. --Sonic Mew 11:35, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

First, I wouldn't count Misty's Song, because I'm pretty sure that was never in Japan. I think was only released in America; I'm not sure about other regions like Europe. So while it is overt, it still doesn't truly confirm it. But then again, why else would have this song been made? Anyway, I think if the explanation is logical enough, we could add it to the article. 206.66.217.142 19:59, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Now someone added it again, this time in the Relationship with Ash section:

Since the Pokémon: Advanced season, however, support for PokéShipping has considerably waned, since Misty has been removed from the main cast. However Misty will return in Diamond and Pearl and she is going to tell Ash her secret that she has feelings for him.

And once again, there's no source to prove this at all. What should be done about this? 206.66.217.144 15:34, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Anyone know what this Pokemon Beware thing posted on Misty's page is? There's no link or nothing! sonicmaster1223

I have no idea what this Pokémon Beware thing is. It might just be the name of someone's fanfic or something like that; I doubt that it is or will become an official part of Pokémon franchise. I would delete unless there is link to that you can find to prove this. There have also been people adding stuff like that when Misty returns, she'll reveal to Ash that she has feelings for her. Would this be counted as vandalism? 206.66.217.140 20:11, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I meant to do this earlier, but I have the following questions that I would like someone to answer:

• 1. Did "Misty's Song" appear on the 2BAMaster CD anywhere other then the U.S. (most importantly Japan)?

• 2. I know that most hints of Misty liking Ash were in the dub, but don't the companies that does the dub of Pokémon and anime, in general, have to get permission from the original creators in Japan to add, delete, or change something?

• 3. Did the commentary of Pokémon: The First Movie say that Misty has a crush on Ash or not?, And if it did, wouldn't this tell us something? I've never heard the commentary, but I have heard that the commentators pointed it out.

• 4. Does anyone know of an old commercial for a Pokémon toy featuring a boy and someone in a Psyduck costume, where they were playing handball or something, and behind the Psyduck, there was a wall had graffiti on it relating to Pokémon, and near on the bottom left corner, it said "Misty loves Ash!"? And if you do remember that commercial, wouldn't this also tell us something?

• 5. At the end of the first half of the episode, "Gotta Catch Ya Later!", Misty gives Ash a handkerchief. I've recently heard that in Japanese culture, a girl would give a handerchief to a boy that she had a crush on. Is this true or not? And if it is true, wouldn't this, yet again, tell us something? 206.66.217.140 21:25, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I can only reply to the first point: I doubt the CD was released in Japan. The song did appear in the European and Latin American versions. --The Raven's Apprentice^{(Profile|PokéNav|Trainer Card)} 07:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

All right, I am going to clear up some stuff for you.

1. That CD was released outside of Japan for profit reasons, it was created in America, so it shouldn't be counted as canon.

2. You have a point in terms of their needing permission to edit. however, sometimes they do it WITHOUT their permission. a notable example is the first movie (did you really think all of the stuff they said in that movie was in the japanese original? no, they completely changed Mewtwo's personality, Mew was made out to be free of sin, despite the fact that he actually had some responsibility, they placed "Brother, My Brother" at the completely wrong time, plus they mixed up 3 pokemon (Pigeotto/Pigeot issue, and the issue involving Alakazam/Scyther amd Sandshrew/Sandslash had absolutely no excuse.), the signposts from Johto up to their last few episodes before PUSA/TAJ took over is also quite notable, since that scribble language was created for the sole purpose of stopping the mass erasures of signs by 4kids.

3. if this was in the dub of the first movie, don't count on it. that commentsry also had them using that excuse that they knew the mistakes involving pokemon, but left them in to have kids point out the mistakes, and they also admitted that they took matters into their own hands to completely "dumb it down" and Americanize it.

4. that is a commercial designed to advertise the newest pokemon toys, that commercial is probably as canon as Pokemon Live (which means, not canon at all, not even close.)

5. As for the handkerchief issue, it is hard to say if that was a part of japanese custom, however, even if that is the reason, that isn't the only explanation. Ash was crying at the sight that his friends are going away (possibly forever), so Misty most likely gave him that handkerchief to dry those tears and to cheer him up. You know, sort of like what happened in Sonic and the secret rings where (spoilers) shara was crying over that evil Genie being possibly gone forever, so Sonic wished for a mountain of handkerchiefs, so Shara can cry as long as she needs to.(end spoilers) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.32.252.169 (talk • contribs)

The question here is not whether the ship exists, but whether it should be covered. We have a whole bunch of official stuff pointing to it, the commercial is just another one of them. And though 4Kids, at least, tried to hype and promote the ship, probably without the Japanese producers' permission, you'll have to concede that it owed the rights to dub and air the anime, and its views are therefore higly notable. Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice^{(Profile|PokéNav|Trainer Card)} 16:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for answering my questions. The answers make sense, but I'm still kind of stuck on the last question I asked. Now, I remember Brock giving Ash a small container of food in "Gotta Catch Ya Later!" and then Misty wrapped the container in the handerchief, claiming that it "makes it easy to carry", which really didn't any sense to me, seeing that Brock could carry it just fine. And where Misty says, "Well, Ash Ketchum, finally, I know how you feel about me.", I think in the Japanese version of the episode, she says like "There is a secret message in that handkerchief...", but I'm not 100% certain. I'm also pretty sure that the two hints mentioned in that paragraph, ("Someday, you and I will be married, too." from "The Heartbreak of Brock" and Misty's goodbye song in "Gotta Catch Ya Later!"), were dub-added. I don't know what was said there in the Japanese version of "The Heartbreak of Brock", but instead of that goodbye song, it showed Misty's accoplishments as a Water Pokémon Trainer up until that point, and her relationship with not just Ash, but with Brock and even Tracey. I just not sure if we should have dub-exclusive hints. That's why I added Pokémon: The Movie 2000, because the hinting throughout the film is the nearly identical, or at least comparable, in both the English and Japanese versions. The film even have a song at end of the Japanese version that hints towards Pokéshipping (the name of the song escapes at the moment). Do you think that those first two hints should stay, even though they were dub-added? I mean, we could say that they were dub-added, but would that help or not? 206.66.217.144 23:08, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I think the section ought to include an overall review of how the dub's been adding hints all through. Thoughts? --The Raven's Apprentice^{(Profile|PokéNav|Trainer Card)} 06:32, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

That sounds pretty good. I mean, I am a Pokéshipper, but I'm aware that there are quite a few hints (especially the better known ones, such as the two that have been included in the section) that were added in the dub. But the biggest problems with this that I can see are that we don't really know which ones were added and which ones weren't, do we? And I have a feeling that the review could get pretty lengthly. Plus, wouldn't we have to figure out which ones are the most noteworthy? 206.66.217.141 19:39, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Hello! Don't you remember the episode when these two kids lose their nidorans? well, the nidorans love each other, and at the end of the episode, the nidorans kiss and evolve. Then Ash says, "so when you get kissed you change?" and Misty says, "We'll just have to find out, won't we Ash?" TA-DA! all you need right in a sentence!

Reviving the PokéShipping debate...

PokéShipping gained a cult following on the Internet and elsewhere, with several online petitions demanding Nintendo overtly depict them as lovers. Since the Pokémon: Advanced season, however, support for PokéShipping has considerably waned, since Misty has been removed from the main cast. Another factor in the fall of support was the birth of "AdvanceShipping", the belief that Ash and May, his traveling companion in the Hoenn story arc, have crushes on each other.

I know this is silly, I wrote all that in the first place. But, after a reread about six months on, this doesn't really seem to be in line with policy. Everything else in the section can be confirmed, but this can't. The cult status and the waning of popularity are true enough, but per Wikipedia's "Verifiability, not truth" policy, it counts as original research and we're not supposed to mention that until a reliable secondary source has covered it. As such, I've moved this off the page for the time being. --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(PokéNav|Trainer Card)} 11:45, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

References

wait wut

There is no way this article is high priority for Wikipedia 1.0.—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 01:27, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Dawn is "top" priority for some reason. We need to form some consensus on priorities. SpigotMap 01:34, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Dawn is just a replacement for May, so Pokemon can keep their girl pokemon fans.

removed a irrelevant statement two weeks ago.

About two weeks ago, I removed this statement out of the article (check the history log):

She likes many typical "girly" and romantic things, but she is also very much a tomboy.

Ok, I removed this statement for several reasons. One, I feel that it is a POV. Two, the statement is a bit contradictory (tomboy in definition is a girl who acts and dresses up as a boy, and three, there is little or no evidence to support this (particularly in the anime, it was never said).

In such, I removed this irrelevant statement out of the article. Hopefully, you guys would agree with me on this. --Dark paladin x (talk) 20:41, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually Misty said she like romantic things like (mt.moon, sunsets, french things) it early episodes. And on her voice actor Mayumi Iizuka calls her the toyboyish mermaid. And the times Ash called her ungirlly. There's a word for tomboy in japan and probably been mention in the japanese version. I don't know if that good enough evidence to put that line back. EternalSunlight (talk) 09:31, 10 January 2008 (UTC)